[Tim]

Been following the news about Volkswagen like a disastertourist lately.
I'm really amused as I must say.
(in short: Volkswagen in crisis after scandal leaking
where they deliberately used cheating software to lower emissions during tests
while their dieselcars emission levels on the road are so much higher in realtime
America discovered and unveiled this fraude, GOD BLESS AMERICA)


anyway they say in the news that all car manufactures cheat
trying to lower their dieselemissionlevels on their cars.
Could Honda have done this as well?
considering their dieselmarket is extremely limited to
the 1.6 here in Europe and the 1.5 in India (if I'm not mistaken)


Any thoughts? I'm just bitten by the idea of just the possibility.
Volkswagen is looking at the biggest fine ever: 18billion dollars
and their marketvalue has dropped a whoooole lot.
They just put aside over 6 billion euro's to cover the first part of this financial misery :surprise:

 

[RobbJK88]

Been following the news about Volkswagen like a disastertourist lately.
I'm really amused as I must say.
(in short: Volkswagen in crisis after scandal leaking
where they deliberately used cheating software to lower emissions during tests
while their dieselcars emission levels on the road are so much higher in realtime
America discovered and unveiled this fraude, GOD BLESS AMERICA)


anyway they say in the news that all car manufactures cheat
trying to lower their dieselemissionlevels on their cars.
Could Honda have done this as well?
considering their dieselmarket is extremely limited to
the 1.6 here in Europe and the 1.5 in India (if I'm not mistaken)


Any thoughts? I'm just bitten by the idea of just the possibility.
Volkswagen is looking at the biggest fine ever: 18billion dollars
and their marketvalue has dropped a whoooole lot.
They just put aside over 6 billion euro's to cover the first part of this financial misery :surprise:

I just read the yahoo update on this. Apparently they're getting ready to launch an investigation into other automakers to make sure that it isn't something other car makers are doing as well. So we'll know in the coming months if honda or others were guilty too.

Honda's diesel use is so low i can't see them doing what VW did. The thing about VW is the fact that they own so many automakers and or share parts/engines with them. Right now the crisis is limited to VW and Audi... but what about other car brands they own like Skoda, Seat and even Porsche? Even though all of those don't use diesel applications, this software could still be present in gas engines, especially high output engines that would be more likely to have higher emissions output.

 

[Smartie]

I would HIGHLY suggest checking out what Bertel over at Kanban has to write about this. The man is well connected


http://dailykanban.com/2015/09/vws-diesel-shenanigans-bigger-headaches-yet-to-come/

Volkswagen is not the only company to use electronic deception. In 1998, Honda and Ford paid $267 million and $7.8 million respectively (home team advantage) for similar monkey-business. A few years earlier, Cadillac had to recall 500,000 cars with a computer that injected more fuel into the engine whenever the A/C was on. When it did so, the catalytic converter could not cope with the carbon monoxide, which was spewed into the air. Technically, no defeat device. However, cars usually are driven with the A/C on, but tested with the A/C off.

And most recently: http://dailykanban.com/2015/09/vw-d...-million-engines-stock-crashes-wiko-in-peril/

 

[RobbJK88]

I would HIGHLY suggest checking out what Bertel over at Kanban has to write about this. The man is well connected


http://dailykanban.com/2015/09/vws-diesel-shenanigans-bigger-headaches-yet-to-come/



And most recently: http://dailykanban.com/2015/09/vw-d...-million-engines-stock-crashes-wiko-in-peril/

Interesting reads for sure. It doesn't surprise me that other automakers including honda have been guilting of similar problems. If anything is to learned from the GM ignition switch recall, the Airbag fiasko still currently going on, and the toyota unintended acceleration, nobody is immune to the oversights, recalls and problems.

Both articles reaffirm my thinking of what about VW groups other engines, their gas engines, and the other car companies that VW owns in Europe that don't sell over here. Originally they had VW diesels just pegged in the US... now it's 11 million engines worldwide... before this is over they'll find more engines and possibly more automakers with the same or similar problems. Kudos to BMW for staying clean and clear of it all so far though. haha.

 

[Tim]

Goddammit, shame on you Honda!
Anyone know how they cheated?
very interesting articles, thanks!


really curious if it's the same case here in Europe
than VW will be kneedeep in sh*t.
And I hope all other brands will be tested for this kind of cheating as well

 

[Smartie]

For now its just the Type EA 189 engine... but Autoguide is saying now the TDI V6 is being questioned as well...

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/...-investigation-to-include-3-0l-v6-engine.html

 

[Smartie]

Goddammit, shame on you Honda!
Anyone know how they cheated?
very interesting articles, thanks!


really curious if it's the same case here in Europe
than VW will be kneedeep in sh*t.
And I hope all other brands will be tested for this kind of cheating as well

The Honda thing is eerily similar...

http://www.justice.gov/archive/opa/pr/1998/June/264enr.htm.html

The United States alleged that Honda disabled the misfire
monitoring device on 1.6 million 1996 and 1997 model year
Accords, Civics, Preludes, Odysseys, and Acuras, as well as 1995
Honda Civics. The complaint also alleged that Honda failed to
report this fact when applying for Certificates of Conformity,
which allow for vehicles to be legally sold if they meet federal
emission standards.

The misfire monitoring device is part of an enhanced
computer system, known as the "On-Board Diagnostic System
("OBD")," which checks a vehicle's emission performance when the
vehicle is in use. When the misfire device is disabled during an
engine misfire, the system's malfunction indicator light will not
operate. Because the vehicle's owner is unaware that the engine
needs to be serviced, increased exhaust emissions of hydrocarbons
and damage to the vehicle's catalyst may occur.

and this NYT piece details both Ford and Honda with some context and quotes... http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/09/us/honda-and-ford-are-fined-millions.html

Bertel made a good point in one of those articles I posted above, as complexity in cars increases the complexity of cheating increases... I seriously doubt the EPA is capable of providing the type of salary that would attract these top level crack coders... the EPA is literally playing in a different league against these minds...

It was university kids that discovered it... the EPA would still know nothing if VW didn't admit to it, EPA still has no idea how they did it beyond software...

 

[liquid squid]

Couple good reads I came across

How a defeat device works http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/vw-emissions-scandal-how-volkswagens-defeat-device-works

Modern cars are smart right, that above link makes an dextremely valid point, you don't think these things know that they're cruising along at 4,000 RPM while standing still... It was inevitable that automakers would engineer for the test and not for the real world, when the importance is placed on the test thats where resources go. Same thing happens with the crash tests...

And this one is more about the organizational decisions that need to happen internally... https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/vw-e...onime-blanc?trk=hp-feed-article-title-comment

 

[CanGuy]

I read that automakers were strengthening one side of the car more than the other because the small overlap test would always be performed on the same side. It just boggles my mind how greedy companies and people can be. When you are running a company that makes billions of dollars, literally, but you decide to skimp on something that could save lives or protect the environment (pollution could also cause lung disease and sickness) just so that you can make even more money. That is placing dollars and cents before the lives and safety of your customers. I won't buy things from companies that engage in such behaviour. Now companies can change (which I believe Honda has since its previous infractions), but I am so appalled with these companies and people in power who think they can do anything and are above the law just because they have money and power. That may be the case, until everyone finds out. I hope this case puts some billionaires in jail.

Can't an honest man/company be successful in today's world?

 

[5TAR]

It's smart for them but horrible for consumers, they make a killing from the start and with what they end up having to pay in the end, they still come out on top. With big brands there's a lot of loyal customers that will still stick with the brand even when real concerns like this come up.

 

[Civil]

It's smart for them but horrible for consumers, they make a killing from the start and with what they end up having to pay in the end, they still come out on top. With big brands there's a lot of loyal customers that will still stick with the brand even when real concerns like this come up.

If they still make a profit ultimately from the decision to cheat, then the penalty is not severe enough. Remember that its not just the fine, its also lost customers in the future, the buyback of vehicles, and a huge loss in stock price.

Years later, it would be very interesting to see an analysis on this as to how much they made and how much they lost because of the whole thing.

 

[RobbJK88]

It's smart for them but horrible for consumers, they make a killing from the start and with what they end up having to pay in the end, they still come out on top. With big brands there's a lot of loyal customers that will still stick with the brand even when real concerns like this come up.

You see the same thing happening in big pharma... They release new meds knowing full well there are potentially deadly long term use side effects. BUT. They make so much money selling the drug initially that by time the lawsuits for wrongful death and such start coming around, they spend a fraction of it getting themselves through court and still come out will billions to spare.

I'm torn to think, does big money make people terrible or are terrible people better at making big money?

 

[Civil]

You see the same thing happening in big pharma... They release new meds knowing full well there are potentially deadly long term use side effects. BUT. They make so much money selling the drug initially that by time the lawsuits for wrongful death and such start coming around, they spend a fraction of it getting themselves through court and still come out will billions to spare.

I'm torn to think, does big money make people terrible or are terrible people better at making big money?

Did you see this story about a guy who marked up a drug about 5000%?

The drug company Turing Pharmaceuticals is under fire after a New York Times article published Sunday detailing how it raised the price of a toxoplasmosis drug by more than 5,000 percent after acquiring the drug in August. One tablet of Daraprim used to cost $13.50; now, after its acquisition by Turing, it costs $750 per tablet.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...turing-pharmaceuticals-martin-shkreli/406546/

 

[RobbJK88]

Did you see this story about a guy who marked up a drug about 5000%?



http://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...turing-pharmaceuticals-martin-shkreli/406546/

Oh yes. i've kept updated on it. He's now marking it back down again after all the hate he got online. They're saying he's currently the most hated man in america.

 

[Smartie]

Winterkorn is out now, he just resigned... http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/23/us-usa-volkswagen-idUSKCN0RL0II20150923

and it looks like they're just lining up to sue VW back into the stone age... http://blog.caranddriver.com/oh-law...ther-filing-class-action-lawsuits-against-vw/

Have you guys seen the infographic on how the defeat device works?

 

[Tim]

Sheezes, bit shocked by the examples in this thread.
Even how far people/companies will go in saving money while neglecting safetyissues.
Last night I talked with some firends bout the VWscandal and we all had the same opinion:
You'd be surprised how easily people forget...


Still I really hope they don't in this case.
Also I really hope all brands will be thoroughly tested on this.
Really wanna know who cheats and who doesn't


If I were a VWowner it would have been my last VWcar after this.
certainly with the talk about how hard it is to agree at those climatediscussion on a global level
and then the biggest carmaker does this
Ok, there are probably worse things than those carfumes considering climate control
but it can't be neglected. you can see how stronger rules are applied for those emissions
and then you do something bold like this...

 

[Smartie]

Sheezes, bit shocked by the examples in this thread.
Even how far people/companies will go in saving money while neglecting safetyissues.
Last night I talked with some firends bout the VWscandal and we all had the same opinion:
You'd be surprised how easily people forget...


Still I really hope they don't in this case.
Also I really hope all brands will be thoroughly tested on this.
Really wanna know who cheats and who doesn't


If I were a VWowner it would have been my last VWcar after this.
certainly with the talk about how hard it is to agree at those climatediscussion on a global level
and then the biggest carmaker does this
Ok, there are probably worse things than those carfumes considering climate control
but it can't be neglected. you can see how stronger rules are applied for those emissions
and then you do something bold like this...

Totally.

yes VW lied and cheated, what I don't like is the rhetoric attached to it, like VW THREATHENS HUMAN LIVES courtesy of CARB or EPA can't remember. Not for anything, but this again distracts us from the major issues of air pollution. This is about equal to pissing in the ocean...and speaking of the ocean the biggest source of pollution from motorized transportation comes from transport ships... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1229857/How-16-ships-create-pollution-cars-world.html

Additionally, looks there may also be an algorithm that restricts the flow of DEF in VW's larger diesels...and BMW may of been caught manipulating as well, although looks like EU regs allow for some funny business to occur in lab testing. For example you can strip excess weight, remove A/C etc... http://jalopnik.com/german-magazine-claims-the-bmw-x3-diesel-also-violates-1732767600

 

[Civil]

Oh yes. i've kept updated on it. He's now marking it back down again after all the hate he got online. They're saying he's currently the most hated man in america.

"The most hated man in America" -- that is an impressive feat given that he has some very, very stiff competition.

I think that he didn't really have a choice though. Even if what he did was technically legal, in the court of public opinion it was egregious. People literally need this medicine to live. I can guarantee you that either he backed down, or died by some means of mob justice.

Especially when you are doing this with a drug that has to do with the HIV community, you are really taking on quite the force. Back in the 80s, people with HIV organized to get medication costs decreased and released. So they have a whole infrastructure.

Anyway, this guy is really one of the most despicable people I have ever heard of. I would say that he is worse than VW. Not that they are comparable.

 

[Tim]

Totally.

yes VW lied and cheated, what I don't like is the rhetoric attached to it, like VW THREATHENS HUMAN LIVES courtesy of CARB or EPA can't remember. Not for anything, but this again distracts us from the major issues of air pollution. This is about equal to pissing in the ocean...and speaking of the ocean the biggest source of pollution from motorized transportation comes from transport ships... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1229857/How-16-ships-create-pollution-cars-world.html

Additionally, looks there may also be an algorithm that restricts the flow of DEF in VW's larger diesels...and BMW may of been caught manipulating as well, although looks like EU regs allow for some funny business to occur in lab testing. For example you can strip excess weight, remove A/C etc... http://jalopnik.com/german-magazine-claims-the-bmw-x3-diesel-also-violates-1732767600

VW threatening human lives is idd a bit far fetched
but advertising that you have a green car
and people actually buying it for this reason
is committing serious fraude by using this software
I stil find it hard to believe if you're the world leading carmanufacturer
you let yourself get caught on this level of scam

 

[Tim]

@Smartie: your last link you posted: does that mean they're going to start testing all (european) manufacturers
or is it just a random sample?