[RobbJK88]

Been following the news about Volkswagen like a disastertourist lately.
I'm really amused as I must say.
(in short: Volkswagen in crisis after scandal leaking
where they deliberately used cheating software to lower emissions during tests
while their dieselcars emission levels on the road are so much higher in realtime
America discovered and unveiled this fraude, GOD BLESS AMERICA)


anyway they say in the news that all car manufactures cheat
trying to lower their dieselemissionlevels on their cars.
Could Honda have done this as well?
considering their dieselmarket is extremely limited to
the 1.6 here in Europe and the 1.5 in India (if I'm not mistaken)


Any thoughts? I'm just bitten by the idea of just the possibility.
Volkswagen is looking at the biggest fine ever: 18billion dollars
and their marketvalue has dropped a whoooole lot.
They just put aside over 6 billion euro's to cover the first part of this financial misery :surprise:

I just read the yahoo update on this. Apparently they're getting ready to launch an investigation into other automakers to make sure that it isn't something other car makers are doing as well. So we'll know in the coming months if honda or others were guilty too.

Honda's diesel use is so low i can't see them doing what VW did. The thing about VW is the fact that they own so many automakers and or share parts/engines with them. Right now the crisis is limited to VW and Audi... but what about other car brands they own like Skoda, Seat and even Porsche? Even though all of those don't use diesel applications, this software could still be present in gas engines, especially high output engines that would be more likely to have higher emissions output.

 

[RobbJK88]

I would HIGHLY suggest checking out what Bertel over at Kanban has to write about this. The man is well connected


http://dailykanban.com/2015/09/vws-diesel-shenanigans-bigger-headaches-yet-to-come/



And most recently: http://dailykanban.com/2015/09/vw-d...-million-engines-stock-crashes-wiko-in-peril/

Interesting reads for sure. It doesn't surprise me that other automakers including honda have been guilting of similar problems. If anything is to learned from the GM ignition switch recall, the Airbag fiasko still currently going on, and the toyota unintended acceleration, nobody is immune to the oversights, recalls and problems.

Both articles reaffirm my thinking of what about VW groups other engines, their gas engines, and the other car companies that VW owns in Europe that don't sell over here. Originally they had VW diesels just pegged in the US... now it's 11 million engines worldwide... before this is over they'll find more engines and possibly more automakers with the same or similar problems. Kudos to BMW for staying clean and clear of it all so far though. haha.

 

[RobbJK88]

It's smart for them but horrible for consumers, they make a killing from the start and with what they end up having to pay in the end, they still come out on top. With big brands there's a lot of loyal customers that will still stick with the brand even when real concerns like this come up.

You see the same thing happening in big pharma... They release new meds knowing full well there are potentially deadly long term use side effects. BUT. They make so much money selling the drug initially that by time the lawsuits for wrongful death and such start coming around, they spend a fraction of it getting themselves through court and still come out will billions to spare.

I'm torn to think, does big money make people terrible or are terrible people better at making big money?

 

[RobbJK88]

Did you see this story about a guy who marked up a drug about 5000%?



http://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...turing-pharmaceuticals-martin-shkreli/406546/

Oh yes. i've kept updated on it. He's now marking it back down again after all the hate he got online. They're saying he's currently the most hated man in america.

 

[RobbJK88]

According to what i read this morning. VW is going to really hit on the Electric/Hybrid cars. But also continue their Diesel and NG research and models.

The fix they're claiming for the scandal is a piece of tech that injects a fluid in the exhaust which vaporized and neutralized the toxic emissions to a safe/legal level. Which the article also stated would actually be more expensive than doing software updates or even engine modifications. But i think VW is trying to preserve the driving dynamics the customers are used to as software changes would probably lower the torque and hp numbers too low.

they also say that the Phaeton sedan which was already in preproduction guise has been scrapped in favor of a new design with an all electric powertrain.

They're also cutting their investments budget by $1.1 Billion for the next few years in order to recoup the costs associated with this whole problem.

On a side note... one website that deals in depreciation, has seen the % of depreciation on diesel VW models double or more since the scandal was brought to light, which sucks for the owners of these cars that were expecting to sell them down the road... Jetta TDI models have depreciated almost 7.9% since the scandal started compared to a 3.4% industry standard.

 

[RobbJK88]

I know what my next winter beater will be...

Right? German cars already had crap for resale values, hence why i've looked at Audis that are only about 3 years old and they're in the low 20s range. This scandal is going to make their diesel cars super affordable used.

 

[RobbJK88]

You're insane if you think diesel will die. It might not be the fuel de rigueur but try getting a ship across the ocean without marine diesel, try getting groceries to your local market without a tractor trailer, try building an apartment, roads, subways, whatever without diesel...

its cheap and it punches above its weight...

The only thing European jurisdictions need to clamp down are is their testing methods. Diesel itself isn't the culprit, the people who are culpable are the ones who created the environment for cheating (hint it wasn't VW)

You get NOx increasing when you need to lean out the fuel (which was done in order to meet mileage targets, thats probabaly more of a marketing thing then anything) The reason cars pass on the test cycle is that they use more fuel to produce less NOx, which sure it ruins mileage but its great for emissions.

So what do we want excellent emissions or excellent mileage? Because at the end of the day diesels are still sporting north of 40% thermal efficiency and thats a fact...

We want to talk about how terrible all this extra NOx is... then why don't we stop burning coal in all our power plants, because NOx accounts for some 80% of coal fired emissions... remember how great electric cars are... well their 'fuel' seems to contain more NOx emissions then a diesel tail pipe, OH FUQ don't tell the Teslarati

I think he might have meant diesel passenger vehicles like the ones VW makes... i don't think he meant ALL Diesel.... meaning light duty/heavy duty trucks, semis, farm equipment and such would still operate with diesel engines... just the passenger vehicles like cars and SUVs wouldn't have diesel anymore.

 

[RobbJK88]

diesel still provides a more complete burn then gasoline. That's what thermal efficiency is. diesel still packs more energy per gallon then gasoline.

I'm not saying it doesn't... and hence why it's great in large format applications like trunks and farm equipment etc....

But with the ever growing EPA standards not only here but in other parts of the world it's getting harder for these big automakers even to get the same type of performance out of a diesel engine while still lawfully adhering to the clean air standards...

I just think overall diesel may be a dying breed when it comes to passenger cars. It'll be around a long time in other applications, but for passenger cars electric, hybrid and advances in petrol engines have alot more potential behind them, unless VW or another group can come up with new tech that changes the viability of diesel.

Side note: The brand new CEO/President of VW American Region (US, Canada, Mexico) resigned after only 2 weeks in the position... he hadn't even officially started. More setbacks for poor VW.

 

[RobbJK88]

Ok 2 things.

1) Don't extrapolate what VW did onto other manufacturers.
2) the EPA does not set the rules for the world. Diesel will remain popular in remote areas and lesser developed nations.

he has a point about thermal efficiency, gas engines are in the 25 to 30% range, most diesels are up at 40%. If you want to reduce NOx you can use cooled EGR for a 3-5% trade in efficiency...

Find the balance though, too lean and you get a ton of NOx, too rich and you get black belches.

From what I understand there is still a long way to go with diesel exhaust aftertreatments.

diesels are once again gaining interest from the aviation industry, which is interesting on its own.

It's pretty safe to extrapolate VWs issues onto other automakers... a few years back a test was performed on diesel cars accross all manufacturers in europe and according to what i read, BMW was the ONLY automaker to actually meet all the standards without using some sort of cheat software or under the table hardware that isn't always active.

And of course diesel will remain popular in unregulated areas... but do you think NEW cars are really selling in huge volume in those same areas? No.... so the automakers are going to have to adapt to the developed areas where most of their sales do come from.

 

[RobbJK88]

do you happen to know where you can find these testresults?
and how do you mean with cheating: like cheating in the testing facility by removing mirrors, inflating tire pressures etc. or similar fraude tactics like vw?

The article was actually posted somewhere on this forum.... it could be in this thread earlier on...

Not sure if it had specific test numbers... but it outlined that BMW was the only automaker not cheating the system somehow to lower numbers... some it was software hacks (similar to VW), others it was test cars with special equipment... or only pertained to specific trims... etc. They all had their own ways of doing it and BMW was the only one that passed the test and wasn't shown to have any cheat devices or other loopholes to fudge the numbers.

 

[RobbJK88]

An update... Germany is now forcing VW to recall all the effected cars... VW asked if they could make the recall optional for owners and the German Auto Authority said heck no... That's another 2.4 million cars i believe was the estimate. And they haven't even started looking into their V6 diesels or any of VWs sub brands like Skoda or Seat... that could be another huge mess waiting to happen. And you can bet that more tests will be performed to make sure other automakers aren't guilty of similar things..

The test i was mentioning earlier wasn't a super recent test... it was a few years old, so goodness knows they'll be retesting current offerings to make sure that things are how they should be.