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Volkswagen Das Auto (with Das Cheating Software)

18745 Views 84 Replies 10 Participants Last post by  Tim
Been following the news about Volkswagen like a disastertourist lately.
I'm really amused as I must say.
(in short: Volkswagen in crisis after scandal leaking
where they deliberately used cheating software to lower emissions during tests
while their dieselcars emission levels on the road are so much higher in realtime
America discovered and unveiled this fraude, GOD BLESS AMERICA)

anyway they say in the news that all car manufactures cheat
trying to lower their dieselemissionlevels on their cars.
Could Honda have done this as well?
considering their dieselmarket is extremely limited to
the 1.6 here in Europe and the 1.5 in India (if I'm not mistaken)

Any thoughts? I'm just bitten by the idea of just the possibility.
Volkswagen is looking at the biggest fine ever: 18billion dollars
and their marketvalue has dropped a whoooole lot.
They just put aside over 6 billion euro's to cover the first part of this financial misery :surprise:
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I would HIGHLY suggest checking out what Bertel over at Kanban has to write about this. The man is well connected


Volkswagen is not the only company to use electronic deception. In 1998, Honda and Ford paid $267 million and $7.8 million respectively (home team advantage) for similar monkey-business. A few years earlier, Cadillac had to recall 500,000 cars with a computer that injected more fuel into the engine whenever the A/C was on. When it did so, the catalytic converter could not cope with the carbon monoxide, which was spewed into the air. Technically, no defeat device. However, cars usually are driven with the A/C on, but tested with the A/C off.
And most recently: http://dailykanban.com/2015/09/vw-d...-million-engines-stock-crashes-wiko-in-peril/
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For now its just the Type EA 189 engine... but Autoguide is saying now the TDI V6 is being questioned as well...

Goddammit, shame on you Honda!
Anyone know how they cheated?
very interesting articles, thanks!

really curious if it's the same case here in Europe
than VW will be kneedeep in sh*t.
And I hope all other brands will be tested for this kind of cheating as well
The Honda thing is eerily similar...


The United States alleged that Honda disabled the misfire
monitoring device on 1.6 million 1996 and 1997 model year
Accords, Civics, Preludes, Odysseys, and Acuras, as well as 1995
Honda Civics. The complaint also alleged that Honda failed to
report this fact when applying for Certificates of Conformity,
which allow for vehicles to be legally sold if they meet federal
emission standards.

The misfire monitoring device is part of an enhanced
computer system, known as the "On-Board Diagnostic System
("OBD")," which checks a vehicle's emission performance when the
vehicle is in use. When the misfire device is disabled during an
engine misfire, the system's malfunction indicator light will not
operate. Because the vehicle's owner is unaware that the engine
needs to be serviced, increased exhaust emissions of hydrocarbons
and damage to the vehicle's catalyst may occur.
and this NYT piece details both Ford and Honda with some context and quotes... http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/09/us/honda-and-ford-are-fined-millions.html

Bertel made a good point in one of those articles I posted above, as complexity in cars increases the complexity of cheating increases... I seriously doubt the EPA is capable of providing the type of salary that would attract these top level crack coders... the EPA is literally playing in a different league against these minds...

It was university kids that discovered it... the EPA would still know nothing if VW didn't admit to it, EPA still has no idea how they did it beyond software...
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Winterkorn is out now, he just resigned... http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/23/us-usa-volkswagen-idUSKCN0RL0II20150923

and it looks like they're just lining up to sue VW back into the stone age... http://blog.caranddriver.com/oh-law...ther-filing-class-action-lawsuits-against-vw/

Have you guys seen the infographic on how the defeat device works?

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Sheezes, bit shocked by the examples in this thread.
Even how far people/companies will go in saving money while neglecting safetyissues.
Last night I talked with some firends bout the VWscandal and we all had the same opinion:
You'd be surprised how easily people forget...

Still I really hope they don't in this case.
Also I really hope all brands will be thoroughly tested on this.
Really wanna know who cheats and who doesn't

If I were a VWowner it would have been my last VWcar after this.
certainly with the talk about how hard it is to agree at those climatediscussion on a global level
and then the biggest carmaker does this
Ok, there are probably worse things than those carfumes considering climate control
but it can't be neglected. you can see how stronger rules are applied for those emissions
and then you do something bold like this...

yes VW lied and cheated, what I don't like is the rhetoric attached to it, like VW THREATHENS HUMAN LIVES courtesy of CARB or EPA can't remember. Not for anything, but this again distracts us from the major issues of air pollution. This is about equal to pissing in the ocean...and speaking of the ocean the biggest source of pollution from motorized transportation comes from transport ships... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1229857/How-16-ships-create-pollution-cars-world.html

Additionally, looks there may also be an algorithm that restricts the flow of DEF in VW's larger diesels...and BMW may of been caught manipulating as well, although looks like EU regs allow for some funny business to occur in lab testing. For example you can strip excess weight, remove A/C etc... http://jalopnik.com/german-magazine-claims-the-bmw-x3-diesel-also-violates-1732767600
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@Smartie: your last link you posted: does that mean they're going to start testing all (european) manufacturers
or is it just a random sample?
I'm not totally sure... AUTO BILD has been accused in the past of being VW's Magazine, they also seem to be the only ones saying anything about BMW...

I'm also wondering if their move to get rid of Audi and Porsche R&D chiefs is a subtle admission that the cheat isn't just in Type EA 189. I mean why else would you axe these people if they weren't responsible... Thats some top level talent to be discarded as mere scapegoats... http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/24/horn-hackenburg-hatz-fired-vw-diesel-scandal/
those three not knowing about this beforehand would idd seem unlikely
but in the news I heared Winterkorn didn't know about all this
Hmmm... so why fire him?
I think that's the position he has to take. Could you imagine the maelstrom if Winterkorn had admitted that he was indeed compliant... thats malice from the very top, an organization dedicated to cheating. At least this way its able to be spun as somewhat rogue individuals acting instead of a corporate culture issue IMO... (which I disagree with, I think it is indeed a culture thing, just trying to think through their thinking)
I like the way you think ;-)

something this big could not have been known from the top imo
Oh lookie here. Doctor professor Winterkorn still has 2 high level positions within the VW mess of corporate entities... http://dailykanban.com/2015/09/winterkorn-stepped-down-not-exactly/

The good doctor headed up Technical Development for the entire VW group since 2000... Maybe his promotion to CEO was reward...

You know what... I'd almost prefer if he stayed... dont fine VW, don't fire anyone, let them continue on as usual...but they don't get to wash their image. Yes you are a company that cheats and you will continue to be viewed in this light... Firings are the easy way out for the culprits, keep them in position and make them fuckking squirm
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yup, i really hope it doesn't turn into something like that
but best to keep my hopes low

the german government gave vw till the 7th of october to come with a solution
whatever that may be...
the solution is to announce an eventual recall, eventually... then decide just what the recall will be... then figure out how to do it...

its not a software patch, VW tried it in the US back in April... its a physical fix and thats a problem... VW doesn't sell/manufacture 11 million cars in a year...

I defer to Bertel once again... http://dailykanban.com/2015/09/dies...ventually-makes-you-think-its-only-5-million/
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absolutely nobody is going to jail...

The law basically requires that emission readings are not exceeded during testing. In normal, highly individual driving, the law does not require that readings stay under the limit. If a manufacturer optimizes the motor management for the emissions test, that can hardly be called fraud. Unethical, maybe. Fraud, no way.
also remember winterkorn said he's not aware of any wrongdoing...try and prove the intent of a man who was unaware of any wrong doing, if he thought he was good doing how could he of intended wrong doing...

but this is the beauty, goddam good ol U S of A... http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswagen-may-not-face-environmental-criminal-charges-1443567204

Car companies, with the aid of industry-friendly lawmakers, won a carve-out from criminal penalties in the 1970 Clean Air Act—a loophole that has largely escaped notice in recent years. Prosecutors now are considering alternative legal approaches, such as charging Volkswagen with lying to regulators.


While refineries and other types of major polluters are criminally liable under the Clean Air Act for emissions beyond legal limits, the section of the law that deals with automobiles specifically leaves out any similar provision.
another lovely read
thnx! dormant in many more vehicles then 11 million, oh boy oh boy oh boy
the fact that they're talking about 'refitting' cars and not 'reflashing' cars is huge IMO... I believe it relates to how the emissions scrubbing hardware interacts with the software. The hardware would of been designed to run a different mapping, They're certainly not optimized to work with totally compliant software... so this will be interesting...

But still no one will go to jail... we'll forget about it... we already forgot that GM killed 100 something people, we already forgot about Takata, we certainly forgot about Ford and Firestone...

Hackenburg who they said mastermined it claims he was circumvented and it never passed his desk for approval, the only guy above him is Winterkorn...


In the letter to Winterkorn, Hackenberg wrote that he did not know of any defeat devices, because the “reporting channels” went around him in that regard. Insiders at Volkswagen see that as subtle finger pointing at Winterkorn. “If he was bypassed as the report was sent up the ladder, who he’s saying got the report?” a Volkswagen manager asks me. “At Volkswagen, above Hackenberg was only Winterkorn, and then God.”
I don't believe that it was a few rogue engineers. That seems convenient. If it was something top people knew about, blaming a few engineers would be a great scapegoat.

Either they knew and were acting in bad faith, or they didn't and were pretty stupid to not have known what was going on with their company and vehicles.
but lets be serious...you don't cockup emissions with complex software AND hardware by accident...

and no lone or 2 or 3 engineers in a company as big as VW would be able to push through something this nefarious by themselves.

Although I have read about the culture of fear at VW, where you're expected to already know what the manager wants and not have to be told.

If and when the emissions 'fix' was actually developed by a couple of middle engineers, it would of had to go straight up the chain before it could of been approved for mass production...
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Here look, now they're saying something like at least 30 managers were involved, and thats not counting the people who would of engineered the tech for their bosses...


and people are jumping ship... http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/10/new-volkswagen-na-boss-quits-before-taking-position/

Vahland will not be taking the N.A. role which would have given him the responsibility of overseeing the U.S., Canadian and Mexican markets.

“Differing views on the organisation of the new Group region have led to this decision,” Škoda said in a release on Wednesday, though the automaker was careful to point out that “this decision is expressly not related to current events on the issue of diesel engines.”

A replacement for Vahland in North America has not yet been announced.
they promoted this guy last week and he jumps ship before even seeing his new office, to me that doesn't say this was a few rogue engineers, this is a guy who's running for his life, to me this says he know the whole company is one big pot of toxic sludge...
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I'm not saying it doesn't... and hence why it's great in large format applications like trunks and farm equipment etc....

But with the ever growing EPA standards not only here but in other parts of the world it's getting harder for these big automakers even to get the same type of performance out of a diesel engine while still lawfully adhering to the clean air standards...

I just think overall diesel may be a dying breed when it comes to passenger cars. It'll be around a long time in other applications, but for passenger cars electric, hybrid and advances in petrol engines have alot more potential behind them, unless VW or another group can come up with new tech that changes the viability of diesel.

Side note: The brand new CEO/President of VW American Region (US, Canada, Mexico) resigned after only 2 weeks in the position... he hadn't even officially started. More setbacks for poor VW.
Ok 2 things.

1) Don't extrapolate what VW did onto other manufacturers.
2) the EPA does not set the rules for the world. Diesel will remain popular in remote areas and lesser developed nations.

he has a point about thermal efficiency, gas engines are in the 25 to 30% range, most diesels are up at 40%. If you want to reduce NOx you can use cooled EGR for a 3-5% trade in efficiency...

Find the balance though, too lean and you get a ton of NOx, too rich and you get black belches.

From what I understand there is still a long way to go with diesel exhaust aftertreatments.

diesels are once again gaining interest from the aviation industry, which is interesting on its own.
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“That stuff interests only politicos and the media, customers usually don’t give a flying BLEEP about this, and thank God for that” a Volkswagen manager told me in the usual robust language at the company
Strangely, big recalls, especially those not impacting safety or driveability, can be good for sales. Millions of customers come back to their dealers, and some will leave with a new car.
Are you saying people aren't wiling to sacrifice fuel efficiency and performance in the name of emissions?
I think you'll quickly come to find that most people simply couldn't care less what their tail pipe emissions are... oh sure they'll tell you they care on surveys and in conversation, but when it comes to purchasing most people are concerned with one thing, value...

And if the VW's are giving them the mileage they want while feeling like the car they want then I don't see what VW did wrong.

The reason people are so up in arms is because VW cheated to give them the car that they wanted...how do you reconcile that you're part of the problem with your outrage...

In other news at VW, looks like everyone is dirty... http://dailykanban.com/2015/10/dies...-at-vw-and-a-rise-of-the-blissfully-ignorant/

The real damage is not a few billion in penalty payments, but a mass mortality of VW’s management cadres. By wiping out swaths of managers in their prime, dieselgate will influence and set back Volkswagen for decades. Proper replacements are hard to find, and as a contact at Volkswagen said:
and the best was what the one of the VW contacts said to Bertel: “If someone doesn’t know anything about defeat devices, he probably doesn’t know much to begin with.” therein lies the Catch-22...
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Ah this is fabulous... the wonderful folks that call themselves the American government are proposing that we allow automakers to pollute more for safer cars...

The proposal, contained in a 62-page draft bill written by the House Energy and Commerce Committee's Republican staff, would give automakers greenhouse gas emission credits of at least 3 grams of carbon dioxide per mile for a vehicle with three advanced safety mechanisms and 6 grams for a vehicle that communicates with other cars or highway infrastructure.
So are tail pipe emissions really that important if we're willing to use them as an incentive to get autonomous technology into cars... that makes me go hmm... like Cui Bono hmmm, who's benefiting?

Because from the rhetoric I've been hearing VW threatened ALL of our lives by polluting more then they said, so its not ok for VW to threaten all of our lives but it is ok for the American government to threaten our lives? Sorry boys either you stay consistent with your own rhetoric or you out yourselves as fraudulent...

Is it not a hypocrisy that the same government that wants to crucify VW for polluting more then they said they were wants to now use polluting more as a reward... FFS, just remember your government loves you...

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