And most recently: http://dailykanban.com/2015/09/vw-d...-million-engines-stock-crashes-wiko-in-peril/Volkswagen is not the only company to use electronic deception. In 1998, Honda and Ford paid $267 million and $7.8 million respectively (home team advantage) for similar monkey-business. A few years earlier, Cadillac had to recall 500,000 cars with a computer that injected more fuel into the engine whenever the A/C was on. When it did so, the catalytic converter could not cope with the carbon monoxide, which was spewed into the air. Technically, no defeat device. However, cars usually are driven with the A/C on, but tested with the A/C off.
The Honda thing is eerily similar...Goddammit, shame on you Honda!
Anyone know how they cheated?
very interesting articles, thanks!
really curious if it's the same case here in Europe
than VW will be kneedeep in sh*t.
And I hope all other brands will be tested for this kind of cheating as well
and this NYT piece details both Ford and Honda with some context and quotes... http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/09/us/honda-and-ford-are-fined-millions.htmlThe United States alleged that Honda disabled the misfire
monitoring device on 1.6 million 1996 and 1997 model year
Accords, Civics, Preludes, Odysseys, and Acuras, as well as 1995
Honda Civics. The complaint also alleged that Honda failed to
report this fact when applying for Certificates of Conformity,
which allow for vehicles to be legally sold if they meet federal
emission standards.
The misfire monitoring device is part of an enhanced
computer system, known as the "On-Board Diagnostic System
("OBD")," which checks a vehicle's emission performance when the
vehicle is in use. When the misfire device is disabled during an
engine misfire, the system's malfunction indicator light will not
operate. Because the vehicle's owner is unaware that the engine
needs to be serviced, increased exhaust emissions of hydrocarbons
and damage to the vehicle's catalyst may occur.
Totally.Sheezes, bit shocked by the examples in this thread.
Even how far people/companies will go in saving money while neglecting safetyissues.
Last night I talked with some firends bout the VWscandal and we all had the same opinion:
You'd be surprised how easily people forget...
Still I really hope they don't in this case.
Also I really hope all brands will be thoroughly tested on this.
Really wanna know who cheats and who doesn't
If I were a VWowner it would have been my last VWcar after this.
certainly with the talk about how hard it is to agree at those climatediscussion on a global level
and then the biggest carmaker does this
Ok, there are probably worse things than those carfumes considering climate control
but it can't be neglected. you can see how stronger rules are applied for those emissions
and then you do something bold like this...
I'm not totally sure... AUTO BILD has been accused in the past of being VW's Magazine, they also seem to be the only ones saying anything about BMW...@Smartie: your last link you posted: does that mean they're going to start testing all (european) manufacturers
or is it just a random sample?
I think that's the position he has to take. Could you imagine the maelstrom if Winterkorn had admitted that he was indeed compliant... thats malice from the very top, an organization dedicated to cheating. At least this way its able to be spun as somewhat rogue individuals acting instead of a corporate culture issue IMO... (which I disagree with, I think it is indeed a culture thing, just trying to think through their thinking)those three not knowing about this beforehand would idd seem unlikely
but in the news I heared Winterkorn didn't know about all this
Hmmm... so why fire him?
Oh lookie here. Doctor professor Winterkorn still has 2 high level positions within the VW mess of corporate entities... http://dailykanban.com/2015/09/winterkorn-stepped-down-not-exactly/I like the way you think ;-)
something this big could not have been known from the top imo
the solution is to announce an eventual recall, eventually... then decide just what the recall will be... then figure out how to do it...yup, i really hope it doesn't turn into something like that
but best to keep my hopes low
the german government gave vw till the 7th of october to come with a solution
whatever that may be...
also remember winterkorn said he's not aware of any wrongdoing...try and prove the intent of a man who was unaware of any wrong doing, if he thought he was good doing how could he of intended wrong doing...The law basically requires that emission readings are not exceeded during testing. In normal, highly individual driving, the law does not require that readings stay under the limit. If a manufacturer optimizes the motor management for the emissions test, that can hardly be called fraud. Unethical, maybe. Fraud, no way.”
Car companies, with the aid of industry-friendly lawmakers, won a carve-out from criminal penalties in the 1970 Clean Air Act—a loophole that has largely escaped notice in recent years. Prosecutors now are considering alternative legal approaches, such as charging Volkswagen with lying to regulators.
...
While refineries and other types of major polluters are criminally liable under the Clean Air Act for emissions beyond legal limits, the section of the law that deals with automobiles specifically leaves out any similar provision.
the fact that they're talking about 'refitting' cars and not 'reflashing' cars is huge IMO... I believe it relates to how the emissions scrubbing hardware interacts with the software. The hardware would of been designed to run a different mapping, They're certainly not optimized to work with totally compliant software... so this will be interesting...another lovely read
thnx! dormant in many more vehicles then 11 million, oh boy oh boy oh boy
In the letter to Winterkorn, Hackenberg wrote that he did not know of any defeat devices, because the “reporting channels” went around him in that regard. Insiders at Volkswagen see that as subtle finger pointing at Winterkorn. “If he was bypassed as the report was sent up the ladder, who he’s saying got the report?” a Volkswagen manager asks me. “At Volkswagen, above Hackenberg was only Winterkorn, and then God.”
but lets be serious...you don't cockup emissions with complex software AND hardware by accident...I don't believe that it was a few rogue engineers. That seems convenient. If it was something top people knew about, blaming a few engineers would be a great scapegoat.
Either they knew and were acting in bad faith, or they didn't and were pretty stupid to not have known what was going on with their company and vehicles.
they promoted this guy last week and he jumps ship before even seeing his new office, to me that doesn't say this was a few rogue engineers, this is a guy who's running for his life, to me this says he know the whole company is one big pot of toxic sludge...Vahland will not be taking the N.A. role which would have given him the responsibility of overseeing the U.S., Canadian and Mexican markets.
“Differing views on the organisation of the new Group region have led to this decision,” Škoda said in a release on Wednesday, though the automaker was careful to point out that “this decision is expressly not related to current events on the issue of diesel engines.”
A replacement for Vahland in North America has not yet been announced.
Ok 2 things.I'm not saying it doesn't... and hence why it's great in large format applications like trunks and farm equipment etc....
But with the ever growing EPA standards not only here but in other parts of the world it's getting harder for these big automakers even to get the same type of performance out of a diesel engine while still lawfully adhering to the clean air standards...
I just think overall diesel may be a dying breed when it comes to passenger cars. It'll be around a long time in other applications, but for passenger cars electric, hybrid and advances in petrol engines have alot more potential behind them, unless VW or another group can come up with new tech that changes the viability of diesel.
Side note: The brand new CEO/President of VW American Region (US, Canada, Mexico) resigned after only 2 weeks in the position... he hadn't even officially started. More setbacks for poor VW.
“That stuff interests only politicos and the media, customers usually don’t give a flying BLEEP about this, and thank God for that” a Volkswagen manager told me in the usual robust language at the company
Strangely, big recalls, especially those not impacting safety or driveability, can be good for sales. Millions of customers come back to their dealers, and some will leave with a new car.
I think you'll quickly come to find that most people simply couldn't care less what their tail pipe emissions are... oh sure they'll tell you they care on surveys and in conversation, but when it comes to purchasing most people are concerned with one thing, value...Are you saying people aren't wiling to sacrifice fuel efficiency and performance in the name of emissions?
and the best was what the one of the VW contacts said to Bertel: “If someone doesn’t know anything about defeat devices, he probably doesn’t know much to begin with.” therein lies the Catch-22...The real damage is not a few billion in penalty payments, but a mass mortality of VW’s management cadres. By wiping out swaths of managers in their prime, dieselgate will influence and set back Volkswagen for decades. Proper replacements are hard to find, and as a contact at Volkswagen said:
So are tail pipe emissions really that important if we're willing to use them as an incentive to get autonomous technology into cars... that makes me go hmm... like Cui Bono hmmm, who's benefiting?The proposal, contained in a 62-page draft bill written by the House Energy and Commerce Committee's Republican staff, would give automakers greenhouse gas emission credits of at least 3 grams of carbon dioxide per mile for a vehicle with three advanced safety mechanisms and 6 grams for a vehicle that communicates with other cars or highway infrastructure.
