Volkswagen Das Auto (with Das Cheating Software)

18703 Views 84 Replies 10 Participants Last post by Tim, Oct 22, 2015

Tim

Discussion Starter · Sep 22, 2015

Been following the news about Volkswagen like a disastertourist lately.
I'm really amused as I must say.
(in short: Volkswagen in crisis after scandal leaking
where they deliberately used cheating software to lower emissions during tests
while their dieselcars emission levels on the road are so much higher in realtime
America discovered and unveiled this fraude, GOD BLESS AMERICA)

anyway they say in the news that all car manufactures cheat
trying to lower their dieselemissionlevels on their cars.
Could Honda have done this as well?
considering their dieselmarket is extremely limited to
the 1.6 here in Europe and the 1.5 in India (if I'm not mistaken)

Any thoughts? I'm just bitten by the idea of just the possibility.
Volkswagen is looking at the biggest fine ever: 18billion dollars
and their marketvalue has dropped a whoooole lot.
They just put aside over 6 billion euro's to cover the first part of this financial misery :surprise:

61 - 80 of 85 Posts

Smartie

· #61 · Oct 15, 2015

RobbJK88 said:
I'm not saying it doesn't... and hence why it's great in large format applications like trunks and farm equipment etc....

But with the ever growing EPA standards not only here but in other parts of the world it's getting harder for these big automakers even to get the same type of performance out of a diesel engine while still lawfully adhering to the clean air standards...

I just think overall diesel may be a dying breed when it comes to passenger cars. It'll be around a long time in other applications, but for passenger cars electric, hybrid and advances in petrol engines have alot more potential behind them, unless VW or another group can come up with new tech that changes the viability of diesel.

Side note: The brand new CEO/President of VW American Region (US, Canada, Mexico) resigned after only 2 weeks in the position... he hadn't even officially started. More setbacks for poor VW.

Ok 2 things.

1) Don't extrapolate what VW did onto other manufacturers.
2) the EPA does not set the rules for the world. Diesel will remain popular in remote areas and lesser developed nations.

he has a point about thermal efficiency, gas engines are in the 25 to 30% range, most diesels are up at 40%. If you want to reduce NOx you can use cooled EGR for a 3-5% trade in efficiency...

Find the balance though, too lean and you get a ton of NOx, too rich and you get black belches.

From what I understand there is still a long way to go with diesel exhaust aftertreatments.

diesels are once again gaining interest from the aviation industry, which is interesting on its own.

5TAR

· #62 · Oct 15, 2015

Selling now couldn't be better since it's not widely known that Honda is coming out with a new Civic, you'll have to start worrying once commercials and promos start going live.

RobbJK88

· #63 · Oct 15, 2015

Smartie said:
Ok 2 things.

1) Don't extrapolate what VW did onto other manufacturers.
2) the EPA does not set the rules for the world. Diesel will remain popular in remote areas and lesser developed nations.

he has a point about thermal efficiency, gas engines are in the 25 to 30% range, most diesels are up at 40%. If you want to reduce NOx you can use cooled EGR for a 3-5% trade in efficiency...

Find the balance though, too lean and you get a ton of NOx, too rich and you get black belches.

From what I understand there is still a long way to go with diesel exhaust aftertreatments.

diesels are once again gaining interest from the aviation industry, which is interesting on its own.

It's pretty safe to extrapolate VWs issues onto other automakers... a few years back a test was performed on diesel cars accross all manufacturers in europe and according to what i read, BMW was the ONLY automaker to actually meet all the standards without using some sort of cheat software or under the table hardware that isn't always active.

And of course diesel will remain popular in unregulated areas... but do you think NEW cars are really selling in huge volume in those same areas? No.... so the automakers are going to have to adapt to the developed areas where most of their sales do come from.

Tim

Discussion Starter · #64 · Oct 15, 2015

RobbJK88 said:
It's pretty safe to extrapolate VWs issues onto other automakers... a few years back a test was performed on diesel cars accross all manufacturers in europe and according to what i read, BMW was the ONLY automaker to actually meet all the standards without using some sort of cheat software or under the table hardware that isn't always active.

And of course diesel will remain popular in unregulated areas... but do you think NEW cars are really selling in huge volume in those same areas? No.... so the automakers are going to have to adapt to the developed areas where most of their sales do come from.

do you happen to know where you can find these testresults?
and how do you mean with cheating: like cheating in the testing facility by removing mirrors, inflating tire pressures etc. or similar fraude tactics like vw?

RobbJK88

· #65 · Oct 15, 2015

Tim said:
do you happen to know where you can find these testresults?
and how do you mean with cheating: like cheating in the testing facility by removing mirrors, inflating tire pressures etc. or similar fraude tactics like vw?

The article was actually posted somewhere on this forum.... it could be in this thread earlier on...

Not sure if it had specific test numbers... but it outlined that BMW was the only automaker not cheating the system somehow to lower numbers... some it was software hacks (similar to VW), others it was test cars with special equipment... or only pertained to specific trims... etc. They all had their own ways of doing it and BMW was the only one that passed the test and wasn't shown to have any cheat devices or other loopholes to fudge the numbers.

Tim

Discussion Starter · #66 · Oct 15, 2015

I thought they only tested two vw's and a jetta?

CanGuy

· #67 · Oct 15, 2015

Tim said:
I thought they only tested two vw's and a jetta?

The testing that led to the cat coming out of the bag was on those VW vehicles. Other diesel vehicles have seen similar discrepancies between their lab emissions ratings and their real world ratings. SO when this whole VW thing came out, people began to look at the other vehicles and brands that had similar things going on. Where there is smoke there is fire. Other brands weren't totally cheating by using a defeat device, they just more played to the test so that it would do really well in the lab, but they weren't concerned with how it would do in the real world.

Reactions: 2

RobbJK88

· #68 · Oct 15, 2015

An update... Germany is now forcing VW to recall all the effected cars... VW asked if they could make the recall optional for owners and the German Auto Authority said heck no... That's another 2.4 million cars i believe was the estimate. And they haven't even started looking into their V6 diesels or any of VWs sub brands like Skoda or Seat... that could be another huge mess waiting to happen. And you can bet that more tests will be performed to make sure other automakers aren't guilty of similar things..

The test i was mentioning earlier wasn't a super recent test... it was a few years old, so goodness knows they'll be retesting current offerings to make sure that things are how they should be.

Reactions: 1

Tim

Discussion Starter · #69 · Oct 16, 2015

Apparently Leonardo Di Caprio is planning on making a movie about this whole Volkswagenscandal. :-D
If that's true, I ll definitely will go see it.

4Tires

· #70 · Oct 16, 2015

Lol, I can see it being similar to Wolf of Wall Street. Just CEOs swimming in money and over indulgence.

Reactions: 2

5TAR

· #71 · Oct 16, 2015

They can always make it exciting as they for the most part aim for, they have to, it's a movie lol.

Tim

Discussion Starter · #72 · Oct 16, 2015

for me the reality is already exciting enough

Smartie

· #73 · Oct 16, 2015

hehehe

http://dailykanban.com/2015/10/eu-new-car-buyers-unfazed-by-dieselgate-and-we-are-not-surprised/

“That stuff interests only politicos and the media, customers usually don’t give a flying BLEEP about this, and thank God for that” a Volkswagen manager told me in the usual robust language at the company

Strangely, big recalls, especially those not impacting safety or driveability, can be good for sales. Millions of customers come back to their dealers, and some will leave with a new car.

Tim

Discussion Starter · #74 · Oct 18, 2015

Smartie said:
hehehe

http://dailykanban.com/2015/10/eu-new-car-buyers-unfazed-by-dieselgate-and-we-are-not-surprised/

good news for vw then :-S

Civil

· #75 · Oct 19, 2015

But in this case people will see their fuel efficiency and performance in the name of emissions which they don't really experience in the same way. I wouldn't be happy about that.

4Tires

· #76 · Oct 19, 2015

Are you saying people aren't wiling to sacrifice fuel efficiency and performance in the name of emissions?

Smartie

· #77 · Oct 19, 2015 (Edited)

4Tires said:
Are you saying people aren't wiling to sacrifice fuel efficiency and performance in the name of emissions?

I think you'll quickly come to find that most people simply couldn't care less what their tail pipe emissions are... oh sure they'll tell you they care on surveys and in conversation, but when it comes to purchasing most people are concerned with one thing, value...

And if the VW's are giving them the mileage they want while feeling like the car they want then I don't see what VW did wrong.

The reason people are so up in arms is because VW cheated to give them the car that they wanted...how do you reconcile that you're part of the problem with your outrage...

In other news at VW, looks like everyone is dirty... http://dailykanban.com/2015/10/dies...-at-vw-and-a-rise-of-the-blissfully-ignorant/

The real damage is not a few billion in penalty payments, but a mass mortality of VW’s management cadres. By wiping out swaths of managers in their prime, dieselgate will influence and set back Volkswagen for decades. Proper replacements are hard to find, and as a contact at Volkswagen said:

and the best was what the one of the VW contacts said to Bertel: “If someone doesn’t know anything about defeat devices, he probably doesn’t know much to begin with.” therein lies the Catch-22...

Reactions: 1

Tim

Discussion Starter · #78 · Oct 19, 2015

I partially agree.
It's just wrong that they advertised it, they really accentuated it, that it were 'green diesels'
and that's just plain wrong. Put the emphasis on driveability or reliability but NOT on being clean
cause the customer is paying for that clean technique as well while you're just fooling him

CanGuy

· #79 · Oct 20, 2015

People care about emissions, but not to the point that they would sacrifice performance, and especially fuel efficiency. It's about finding something that meets your needs, and then after that people look at things like emissions. All things equal, I'd rather choose the vehicle that pollutes less.

For some people, emissions would take higher priority, but for most it is more of a second tier consideration.

liquid squid

· #80 · Oct 21, 2015

CanGuy said:
People care about emissions, but not to the point that they would sacrifice performance, and especially fuel efficiency. It's about finding something that meets your needs, and then after that people look at things like emissions. All things equal, I'd rather choose the vehicle that pollutes less.

For some people, emissions would take higher priority, but for most it is more of a second tier consideration.

emissions don't matter, fuel consumption does. Emissions don't have a dollar value that come out of your bank account. Fuel economy does...

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