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Volkswagen Das Auto (with Das Cheating Software)

19K views 84 replies 10 participants last post by  Tim 
#1 ·
Been following the news about Volkswagen like a disastertourist lately.
I'm really amused as I must say.
(in short: Volkswagen in crisis after scandal leaking
where they deliberately used cheating software to lower emissions during tests
while their dieselcars emission levels on the road are so much higher in realtime
America discovered and unveiled this fraude, GOD BLESS AMERICA)


anyway they say in the news that all car manufactures cheat
trying to lower their dieselemissionlevels on their cars.
Could Honda have done this as well?
considering their dieselmarket is extremely limited to
the 1.6 here in Europe and the 1.5 in India (if I'm not mistaken)


Any thoughts? I'm just bitten by the idea of just the possibility.
Volkswagen is looking at the biggest fine ever: 18billion dollars
and their marketvalue has dropped a whoooole lot.
They just put aside over 6 billion euro's to cover the first part of this financial misery :surprise:
 
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#2 ·
I just read the yahoo update on this. Apparently they're getting ready to launch an investigation into other automakers to make sure that it isn't something other car makers are doing as well. So we'll know in the coming months if honda or others were guilty too.

Honda's diesel use is so low i can't see them doing what VW did. The thing about VW is the fact that they own so many automakers and or share parts/engines with them. Right now the crisis is limited to VW and Audi... but what about other car brands they own like Skoda, Seat and even Porsche? Even though all of those don't use diesel applications, this software could still be present in gas engines, especially high output engines that would be more likely to have higher emissions output.
 
#3 ·
I would HIGHLY suggest checking out what Bertel over at Kanban has to write about this. The man is well connected


http://dailykanban.com/2015/09/vws-diesel-shenanigans-bigger-headaches-yet-to-come/

Volkswagen is not the only company to use electronic deception. In 1998, Honda and Ford paid $267 million and $7.8 million respectively (home team advantage) for similar monkey-business. A few years earlier, Cadillac had to recall 500,000 cars with a computer that injected more fuel into the engine whenever the A/C was on. When it did so, the catalytic converter could not cope with the carbon monoxide, which was spewed into the air. Technically, no defeat device. However, cars usually are driven with the A/C on, but tested with the A/C off.
And most recently: http://dailykanban.com/2015/09/vw-d...-million-engines-stock-crashes-wiko-in-peril/
 
#4 ·
I would HIGHLY suggest checking out what Bertel over at Kanban has to write about this. The man is well connected


http://dailykanban.com/2015/09/vws-diesel-shenanigans-bigger-headaches-yet-to-come/



And most recently: http://dailykanban.com/2015/09/vw-d...-million-engines-stock-crashes-wiko-in-peril/
Interesting reads for sure. It doesn't surprise me that other automakers including honda have been guilting of similar problems. If anything is to learned from the GM ignition switch recall, the Airbag fiasko still currently going on, and the toyota unintended acceleration, nobody is immune to the oversights, recalls and problems.

Both articles reaffirm my thinking of what about VW groups other engines, their gas engines, and the other car companies that VW owns in Europe that don't sell over here. Originally they had VW diesels just pegged in the US... now it's 11 million engines worldwide... before this is over they'll find more engines and possibly more automakers with the same or similar problems. Kudos to BMW for staying clean and clear of it all so far though. haha.
 
#5 ·
Goddammit, shame on you Honda!
Anyone know how they cheated?
very interesting articles, thanks!


really curious if it's the same case here in Europe
than VW will be kneedeep in sh*t.
And I hope all other brands will be tested for this kind of cheating as well
 
#7 ·
The Honda thing is eerily similar...

http://www.justice.gov/archive/opa/pr/1998/June/264enr.htm.html

The United States alleged that Honda disabled the misfire
monitoring device on 1.6 million 1996 and 1997 model year
Accords, Civics, Preludes, Odysseys, and Acuras, as well as 1995
Honda Civics. The complaint also alleged that Honda failed to
report this fact when applying for Certificates of Conformity,
which allow for vehicles to be legally sold if they meet federal
emission standards.

The misfire monitoring device is part of an enhanced
computer system, known as the "On-Board Diagnostic System
("OBD")," which checks a vehicle's emission performance when the
vehicle is in use. When the misfire device is disabled during an
engine misfire, the system's malfunction indicator light will not
operate. Because the vehicle's owner is unaware that the engine
needs to be serviced, increased exhaust emissions of hydrocarbons
and damage to the vehicle's catalyst may occur.
and this NYT piece details both Ford and Honda with some context and quotes... http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/09/us/honda-and-ford-are-fined-millions.html

Bertel made a good point in one of those articles I posted above, as complexity in cars increases the complexity of cheating increases... I seriously doubt the EPA is capable of providing the type of salary that would attract these top level crack coders... the EPA is literally playing in a different league against these minds...

It was university kids that discovered it... the EPA would still know nothing if VW didn't admit to it, EPA still has no idea how they did it beyond software...
 
#8 ·
Couple good reads I came across

How a defeat device works http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/vw-emissions-scandal-how-volkswagens-defeat-device-works

Modern cars are smart right, that above link makes an dextremely valid point, you don't think these things know that they're cruising along at 4,000 RPM while standing still... It was inevitable that automakers would engineer for the test and not for the real world, when the importance is placed on the test thats where resources go. Same thing happens with the crash tests...

And this one is more about the organizational decisions that need to happen internally... https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/vw-e...onime-blanc?trk=hp-feed-article-title-comment
 
#9 ·
I read that automakers were strengthening one side of the car more than the other because the small overlap test would always be performed on the same side. It just boggles my mind how greedy companies and people can be. When you are running a company that makes billions of dollars, literally, but you decide to skimp on something that could save lives or protect the environment (pollution could also cause lung disease and sickness) just so that you can make even more money. That is placing dollars and cents before the lives and safety of your customers. I won't buy things from companies that engage in such behaviour. Now companies can change (which I believe Honda has since its previous infractions), but I am so appalled with these companies and people in power who think they can do anything and are above the law just because they have money and power. That may be the case, until everyone finds out. I hope this case puts some billionaires in jail.

Can't an honest man/company be successful in today's world?
 
#10 ·
It's smart for them but horrible for consumers, they make a killing from the start and with what they end up having to pay in the end, they still come out on top. With big brands there's a lot of loyal customers that will still stick with the brand even when real concerns like this come up.
 
#11 ·
If they still make a profit ultimately from the decision to cheat, then the penalty is not severe enough. Remember that its not just the fine, its also lost customers in the future, the buyback of vehicles, and a huge loss in stock price.

Years later, it would be very interesting to see an analysis on this as to how much they made and how much they lost because of the whole thing.
 
#16 ·
Sheezes, bit shocked by the examples in this thread.
Even how far people/companies will go in saving money while neglecting safetyissues.
Last night I talked with some firends bout the VWscandal and we all had the same opinion:
You'd be surprised how easily people forget...


Still I really hope they don't in this case.
Also I really hope all brands will be thoroughly tested on this.
Really wanna know who cheats and who doesn't


If I were a VWowner it would have been my last VWcar after this.
certainly with the talk about how hard it is to agree at those climatediscussion on a global level
and then the biggest carmaker does this
Ok, there are probably worse things than those carfumes considering climate control
but it can't be neglected. you can see how stronger rules are applied for those emissions
and then you do something bold like this...
 
#17 ·
Totally.

yes VW lied and cheated, what I don't like is the rhetoric attached to it, like VW THREATHENS HUMAN LIVES courtesy of CARB or EPA can't remember. Not for anything, but this again distracts us from the major issues of air pollution. This is about equal to pissing in the ocean...and speaking of the ocean the biggest source of pollution from motorized transportation comes from transport ships... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1229857/How-16-ships-create-pollution-cars-world.html

Additionally, looks there may also be an algorithm that restricts the flow of DEF in VW's larger diesels...and BMW may of been caught manipulating as well, although looks like EU regs allow for some funny business to occur in lab testing. For example you can strip excess weight, remove A/C etc... http://jalopnik.com/german-magazine-claims-the-bmw-x3-diesel-also-violates-1732767600
 
#21 ·
I'm not totally sure... AUTO BILD has been accused in the past of being VW's Magazine, they also seem to be the only ones saying anything about BMW...

I'm also wondering if their move to get rid of Audi and Porsche R&D chiefs is a subtle admission that the cheat isn't just in Type EA 189. I mean why else would you axe these people if they weren't responsible... Thats some top level talent to be discarded as mere scapegoats... http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/24/horn-hackenburg-hatz-fired-vw-diesel-scandal/
 
#23 ·
I think that's the position he has to take. Could you imagine the maelstrom if Winterkorn had admitted that he was indeed compliant... thats malice from the very top, an organization dedicated to cheating. At least this way its able to be spun as somewhat rogue individuals acting instead of a corporate culture issue IMO... (which I disagree with, I think it is indeed a culture thing, just trying to think through their thinking)
 
#26 ·
Oh lookie here. Doctor professor Winterkorn still has 2 high level positions within the VW mess of corporate entities... http://dailykanban.com/2015/09/winterkorn-stepped-down-not-exactly/

The good doctor headed up Technical Development for the entire VW group since 2000... Maybe his promotion to CEO was reward...

You know what... I'd almost prefer if he stayed... dont fine VW, don't fire anyone, let them continue on as usual...but they don't get to wash their image. Yes you are a company that cheats and you will continue to be viewed in this light... Firings are the easy way out for the culprits, keep them in position and make them fuckking squirm
 
#30 ·
Apparently all heads of R+D at VW brands are suspended, but who knows what suspended will turn into. I think at this point whoever is in charge of this is trying to figure out who knew and who didn't. Germany is investigating so that could produce something, but corporate crime usually goes unpunished. Pay a fine and move on. Spend a lot on PR.
 
#33 ·
Customers will receive nothing else than a letter, in which they are told “that the emissions characteristics of their vehicles will be corrected in the near future,” and that the cars are safe to drive.
Feels like VW may just pay the fine and call it a day... Probably cheaper than fixing 11 million cars. Or they'll drag it out for a long time. Found another source that said the recall could be costing them a lot of money, in the billions maybe.
 
#35 ·
absolutely nobody is going to jail...

The law basically requires that emission readings are not exceeded during testing. In normal, highly individual driving, the law does not require that readings stay under the limit. If a manufacturer optimizes the motor management for the emissions test, that can hardly be called fraud. Unethical, maybe. Fraud, no way.
also remember winterkorn said he's not aware of any wrongdoing...try and prove the intent of a man who was unaware of any wrong doing, if he thought he was good doing how could he of intended wrong doing...

but this is the beauty, goddam good ol U S of A... http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswagen-may-not-face-environmental-criminal-charges-1443567204

Car companies, with the aid of industry-friendly lawmakers, won a carve-out from criminal penalties in the 1970 Clean Air Act—a loophole that has largely escaped notice in recent years. Prosecutors now are considering alternative legal approaches, such as charging Volkswagen with lying to regulators.

...

While refineries and other types of major polluters are criminally liable under the Clean Air Act for emissions beyond legal limits, the section of the law that deals with automobiles specifically leaves out any similar provision.
 
#37 ·
I don't understand why a megafatory like VW puts so much money and their credibility on the line for something that can be so easily discovered
true, it still took a long time to unravel this scam
it's just surprising to me something of these proportions could be hidden for so many years.


for not going to prison, I would find that very unfair
certainly after reading this rather long but very interesting article
http://fusion.net/story/202422/the-...candal-is-a-new-low-in-corporate-malfeasance/
VWdieselgate has cost human lives imo
 
#41 ·
I am confident we all will agree what Volkswagen did was terrible but we should keep in mind that chances are it was a small team of engineers that pulled off this feat. The atmosphere in VW may not have promoted a environment where a whistle-blower could come forward without fear of retaliation. I cannot hold most of the companies employees responsible for what was probably known by a limited number of people. I must say that how these engineers got away with this for so long world wide is beyond me.

What might be really odd is that the people with the greatest engineering expertise to fix this TDI engine family may be the employees who get kicked to the door. A fix might take longer than expected.
 
#43 ·
I don't believe that it was a few rogue engineers. That seems convenient. If it was something top people knew about, blaming a few engineers would be a great scapegoat.

Either they knew and were acting in bad faith, or they didn't and were pretty stupid to not have known what was going on with their company and vehicles.
 
#48 ·
but lets be serious...you don't cockup emissions with complex software AND hardware by accident...

and no lone or 2 or 3 engineers in a company as big as VW would be able to push through something this nefarious by themselves.

Although I have read about the culture of fear at VW, where you're expected to already know what the manager wants and not have to be told.

If and when the emissions 'fix' was actually developed by a couple of middle engineers, it would of had to go straight up the chain before it could of been approved for mass production...
 
#44 ·
WINTERKORN, WINTERKORN, WINTERKORN!!!!

Hackenburg who they said mastermined it claims he was circumvented and it never passed his desk for approval, the only guy above him is Winterkorn...

http://dailykanban.com/2015/10/hack...ce-vws-chief-controller-dieselgate-embroiled/

In the letter to Winterkorn, Hackenberg wrote that he did not know of any defeat devices, because the “reporting channels” went around him in that regard. Insiders at Volkswagen see that as subtle finger pointing at Winterkorn. “If he was bypassed as the report was sent up the ladder, who he’s saying got the report?” a Volkswagen manager asks me. “At Volkswagen, above Hackenberg was only Winterkorn, and then God.”
 
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